Small But Mighty Episode 9: Colleen Kanna on merging fashion, function, and comfort

The theme for October has definitely been women helping women. My guest on this episode, Colleen Kanna, owner of COKANNA and a cancer survivor, wanted to give women going through breast cancer treatment the kind of clothing options that she struggled to find during her own treatments. It’s a powerful thing when women take on the problems we experience, because it means we can take the hard-earned lessons and wisdom we’ve learned and put it out in the world for others to benefit from.

One of the best parts of my conversation with Colleen Kanna is hearing her determination to do something so different out of a sincere desire to help others. The result has been that her work resonates beyond what she expected. 

In this episode, Colleen shares the story of COKANNA as well as her thoughts on women, fashion (fast and slow), and the evolution of workwear. Attitudes and minds have been changing for years, but the events of 2020 may be accelerating the transformation.  And that’s pretty exciting for businesses like COKANNA that are focused on sustainability and simplicity.

You can connect with Colleen on the COKANNA website, Facebook, Pinterest, Instagram, and YouTube.

Colleen has made a special offer just for Small But Mighty listeners: Use SMALLBUTMIGHTY to get 10% off the Lynne pant from COKANNA.

Full episode transcript

Karen: Hello and welcome to Small But Mighty Biz Stories. Today I am really pleased to have Colleen Kanna who runs COKANNA, a Canadian made bamboo clothing for women store. Welcome, Colleen. How are you today?

Colleen Kanna: Hi, Karen. I'm great and thank you much for having me on your podcast.

Karen: I'm really happy for you to be here. tell us a little bit more about COKANNA?

Colleen: Let's see. COKANNA as you said, is a women's clothing line. It's bamboo and it's super soft and comfy and it started out—well, the idea sprung from me going through breast cancer.

Karen: What inspired you to start a clothing line from that?

Colleen: Well, when I was going through treatment, I found it hard to find really soft, comfy clothes that were easy to put on and take off and still looked stylish, still looked like me. That's what sparked the idea that there was a need for that.

Karen: Are you experienced at designing clothing prior to starting this or was this sort of a new endeavor for you?

Colleen: Yes, this was completely new for me because, prior to that, I had worked for more than 20 years as a chartered accountant. I mean, I always loved fashion from the time I was young and I did do a fashion merchandising diploma at college, and worked in retail for a few years but then my practical side took over and I went back to university and I became an accountant.

Karen: Okay, then has being an accountant helped you with your business?

Colleen: Definitely. For sure, on the financial numbers side, it's definitely helped me and I also think there's a bit of a downside to it in that maybe I'm sometimes a bit conservative when I'm thinking about, plans for the future.

Karen: That's understandable, all that training kicks in. How long have you been operating COKANNA?

Colleen: I started from scratch in 2015. It's been a very slow, step by step process, as I figured out how I was even going to start doing this business.

Karen: Yes, but you've actually got quite a few very loyal fans of the clothing. What's that like to see how people rave about what you've done?

Colleen: I still can't believe it. I mean, it just warms my heart so much because that's really the reason I do it is to try and make up a little bit of a difference in women's lives. It just, I don't know, thrills me to death.

Karen: Oh, that's good. While you did start this for breast cancer [patients] survivors, it has spread beyond that. How's that been?

Colleen: Yes. When I first started, I was very focused on breast cancer. I even did focus groups with breast cancer patients and survivors to see how they liked it, but as I was getting into the business, I found that the majority of my customers were women who did not have breast cancer. I decided that I really should be marketing more to just women in general, but I always designed with the breast cancer women in mind in that, it's soft, easy to put on, easy to take off.

Karen: The nice thing about the clothes that you've designed is that they are very functional. They are stylish and they don't require a dry cleaner.

Colleen: Yes.

Karen: As I get older, I just cannot see myself ever going back to buying anything that requires dry cleaning or the kind of maintenance that forces me to pull out my iron before I can wear something. That's just is such a waste of my time. 

Colleen: I totally agree and I can totally relate because being a chartered accountant, I went to the office every day in these suits that required dry cleaning and pressing, and I can often remember sitting at my desk or in a meeting and thinking, tugging at my waistband or just shifting because I'm uncomfortable and thinking, "There's got to be a better way, a way to look nice and professional, but be comfortable."

Karen: I think what looks professional is slowly being redefined. There are certain industries, especially in professional services like accounting, that it's going to be a lot slower, but other parts of the business world are evolving away from that very formal, high-end dress look because we've learned that you can do a really good job and you don't have to look buttoned up and stiff to do it.

Colleen: Yes, I totally agree with that. I think the workplace has shifted, even in traditional professions like accounting and law. I think the high-tech industry paved the way for that to a more casual, comfortable dress wear and I also think just in this current time with the pandemic, and many of us working from home, that comfort wear has become even more important.

Karen: Absolutely. I think that I talk about comfort wear almost daily with people I know. How has your business been faring during the pandemic?

Colleen: Yes, it's been interesting. Prior to the pandemic—I've always had an online store, but prior to the pandemic, I mostly sold in person. I would go to markets, to different events. I hosted what I call coffee shops in my own place where people would come and have coffee, dessert, meet other women and could try on clothes and shop if they liked. But when the pandemic happened, of course, I couldn't do that anymore. So, I started a virtual coffee shop group online and that's just more as a way to keep connected with people in the community. That's been a good way and I also found that my online business picked up a little more. Not a huge amount, but definitely I saw more traffic on my website.

Karen: Yes, it's definitely forced businesses to market in different ways and be creative in how they're reaching their audiences and it's hard when you're used to that in person, face-to-face touch, and you can't actually do that anymore. How have you addressed that in your own marketing activities?

Colleen: Yes, I find that hard not to have that face-to-face conversation because I really like that connection. That was one of the reasons to start the online group, to keep that connection. Every Wednesday I have a coffee shop chat. It started out just a bunch of women getting on and checking in how we're doing and then I started having guests every week. Other small business owners, just to introduce people to new ideas, new concepts, new services, products, businesses and that's been really good in keeping up that face-to-face connection.

Karen: I love that. It's a nice way to collaborate with other businesses and expand your reach to their networks and expose their networks to you as well.

Colleen: Yes, and it really helped me, I think during that time, especially in the early days of the pandemic to not focus so much and worry about my own business, to reach out and help other businesses as well, we could collaborate and work together.

Karen: When you are designing your clothing, what is the process for you? How does that work?

Colleen: I think I'm definitely not your typical designer because I don't have a design background. When I first started out, that was one big question in my mind, "Do I need to go back to school and go to a design school, learn how to draw and make patterns and make samples?" I decided that, no, I didn't really want to do that at that point in my life and that I would just work with contractors to help me in those areas.

That's what I do. I come up with the ideas and I'll sketch them out and then I work with a designer who will make a sample for me and then there's usually many iterations of that sample before we get it right and then she'll make a pattern for me. From there it's graded into different sizes and then it goes to a manufacturer and all this is done in the Toronto area and they produce the clothes for me.

Karen: I have not personally purchased any of your products, but I have heard from several people I know who have that the quality is exceptional.

Colleen: That's great to hear. That was definitely one of my core values was to keep the product Canadian-made which definitely has its challenges. We're not in Canada, we're not known to be clothing manufacturers so very often companies go overseas, which brings the cost down quite a bit, but I wanted to keep things at home. I wanted to know who was making my products so I visit the manufacturers often, I meet the people that are actually sewing them. I really wanted to know that my products weren't being made somewhere in a sweat shop where employees weren't being treated properly.

Karen: That's one of the things that I find is very appealing about buying from businesses like yours that are based in Canada, do their manufacturing in Canada. They're actually monitoring the whole process start to finish in a more close way than you get with big brands that have moved all of that overseas.

Colleen: Yes, that was exactly it. Even if you go overseas and you see where the clothes are supposed to be made, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's where they're being made because they'll often outsource to someone else and just the distance and I can't even imagine trying to deal with that distance—even for me being in Ottawa and my contractors being in Toronto is sometimes challenging. I just can't imagine going for someone overseas.

Karen: Especially these days when going to Toronto is not a very viable option.

Colleen: Yes, exactly.

Karen: One of the things that I noticed in looking at the dresses in particular is that there are pockets.

Colleen: I know everyone loves pockets.

Karen: Pockets are so important.

Colleen: That's one of the things when I come up with designs, like I said, they go through many iterations, even after I produce them the first time, I always like to get feedback from customers and find out what they like, what they didn't like and then incorporate that into the next round or the next design, and pockets were one thing that came up very early that women love pockets.

Karen: Oh yes. I am amazed at how few mainstream, big brand clothing designs don't include pockets when it's—I haven't met the woman who doesn't want pockets.

Colleen: I understand why companies don't do it. Pockets, they're tricky. It's more expensive for the manufacturing obviously, but they're also tricky especially in a knit fabric, like bamboo that they don't add bulk to where you don't want it and that they don't show through. For my pants, I don't put pockets because they just don't work well, but then I figured out that all the tops and the jackets and the dress have pockets so you don't need the double pockets anyways, but pockets can be tricky.

Karen: I can definitely see that and I know that I've heard because a lot of them get basted and that's a challenge with shipping. I know there's lots of reasons for not having them. It's just one of those things that it creates so much delight when you have pockets.

Colleen: I know people will be like, "Oh my God, there's pockets in here."

Karen: I always laugh because there's those cartoons that talk about two women meeting up and one compliments the other on their dress and the first thing they say is, "Look it has pockets." It's so true. So, you are not a designer and you don't sew the clothes yourself, so it's quite incredible that you have been able to do this without those things and obviously you've got the right supports that you've lined up for your business to make sure that all of your visions are executed in a way that works, how did that go when you were trying to line it all up?

Colleen: That's a really good question. You're right, I often suffer from imposter syndrome of even calling myself a clothing designer, because I think, "I don't know, I'm not really designing, am I?" When I started out, oh my goodness, I had this idea, but it was like, "How am I ever going to execute this?" It was really just one baby step at a time. I think my very first thing is I went to Invest Ottawa, which is an organization that helps entrepreneurs’ businesses. I'm sure you've heard of it.

I just got myself in the mode of thinking about a business, not a design business, but just the business. I went to all their free seminars and then I met with a counselor, a coach there and he said to me, "Do you want to actually sew the clothes or do you want someone else to do it?" That's made me think, "no, I don't want to sell them. I want someone else to do it," so he said, "Okay, then you need to find people you can work with, contractors." From there, I just started making calls.

I remember I called Algonquin College because they had a part-time fashion design course and asked if there was any students or graduates that might be interested. You talk to one person, I think I talked to one of the instructors there and then they give you another lead and it was just following the breadcrumbs. To do my first prototype, I ended up at Twiss and Webber, which is a local design team that has a shop in the market. Laura and Tanya worked with me and helped me design my very first top and they were great. Then at some point, they said, "Okay, we've taken you this far, now you need to go further afar." That's how I got more into the Toronto area. I'm still learning so much. I still don't know very much at all in the industry, so every person I work with teaches me something.

Karen: Well, I think that the value you bring to the table as someone who has experienced the cancer treatments and can speak to the need of patients going through that, in providing them comfort with what they're wearing is so incredibly important to what you're doing, so I think you get to take credit for that, for sure.

Colleen: Thank you.

Karen: Because a lot of these clothing designers may not have experienced that, so they've got to rely on what you have to offer in terms of advice, feedback, and design insights, so that they can get it right. That shows, obviously they've done well, because you've built this up for five years and have such a loyal following. I know it's gone beyond cancer patients, but I think that also speaks to the general move where women just, they want stylish, comfortable clothes.

Colleen: Yes. I think just women, when you get to that age, I'm going to say 40 and up, you get premenopausal, perimenopausal and our bodies just change, and we often feel bad about that, but that's part of life. I want women to not feel bad about it and still be able to find clothing that they feel great, they look good in, and it accommodates all those changes in our body, whether it's going through cancer or you've got arthritis or frozen shoulder or whatever it is, that it's easy to get dressed.

Karen: Yes, absolutely. Easy to get dressed and you don't feel in a rush to shed the uncomfortable clothing at the end of the day to move into pajamas.

Colleen: I know. That so makes me remember my accounting days when the first I get home, take off that suit, put on the yoga pants.

Karen: Yes. I remember that feeling very well. It's nice to see more and more brands coming up with especially independent designers like yourself who have that comfort in mind and the style in mind, and it's also sustainable. Your clothes are made out of bamboo, which is so comfortable. As I was saying in our pre chat, it's one of my two favorite materials to wear. You don't feel like you are hurting the environment, because it's a resource that renews so easily.

Colleen: Yes. I just wanted to mention too, that my bamboo fabric is even knit here in the Toronto area, so I'm really proud of that, that it's truly 100% Canadian made.

Karen: That's incredible. That's really good. I know that not a lot of companies can say that about their-- Especially clothing, as you said, Canada is not known for clothing manufacturing.

Colleen: Yes. It took me a while to get to the point where I could get my fabric custom knit because you obviously have to order quite a bit more of it to make it worth their while to do it for me, but it's just so worth it. The quality is just so much better.

Karen: Yes, for sure. One of the things that's happening right now is this pushback against fast fashion and the damage that does both to the environment, but to workers and to, generally our mindset about consumerism. Clearly, what you're doing is not fast fashion. When it comes to that seasonal change that happens in the retail clothing world, does your business follow that? Or do you just march to the beat of your own drum?

Colleen: I think you hit the nail on the head there. I do march to the beat of my own drum. The fast fashion thing, I really want to promote the idea of slow fashion, and how spending more now, but over the long run saving money. With the bamboo, I love bamboo, because I think of it as an all-season fabric, because it's breathable, because it's thermal regulating, so it keeps you warm in the cool weather and vice versa, cool in the warm weather. It's a great fabric to wear year round, so I don't tend to pay too much attention to seasons. I try and design things that you can wear right through the year.

Karen: Yes, I noticed that. The different colors go together well, and there's layering, easy layering, and it's solid. It's not prints that are going to clash in any way. It's a very simple, streamlined line of products that you have.

Colleen: That's how I designed them to be. I always call them your foundational, basic pieces in your wardrobe, so you'll spend more on those, and then you can add in the fun stuff, the more seasonal stuff at a lower price to accessories or scarves or a fun t-shirt or whatever. To always spend more on your foundational pieces that will last you for years to come.

Karen: Absolutely. I love that. The idea of a capsule wardrobe, all of those of those concepts that are going against fast fashion are so good because it also reduces the stress of making choices about what you're going to wear. I read this fascinating article about a woman who was working in New York City years ago. Her closet was full of all white tops and all black bottoms, so all she had to do was pick a top, pick a bottom. She would maybe choose an accessory to add a bit of color, but she kept it very simple, and it was a shift she made to take that stress out of her day. When I think about the capsule wardrobe idea and these foundational garments that cost a bit more, it's the same idea, because everything works together. It just makes a lot of sense to take that stress of choice out of your life, because we have enough to choose from.

Colleen: I know. I can remember having a closet full of clothes and then when walking in there every morning and not knowing what to wear. That's crazy. I think a lot of us are like that. We have tonnes of clothes. It's funny. If you pay attention, you end up grabbing the same things most of the time, because they're your favorite pieces, they're comfortable to wear, you look great in them, and then all the other stuff just sits there. Yes, that's the whole idea. Keep a minimum of colors as your capsule wardrobe and then add in the fun things like the woman in the article you read about.

Karen: Yes, I love that. Let's shift gears and talk about marketing your business. I know you mentioned that most of it has been at in-person shows and obviously, COVID has impacted that. When you started the business and promoting, what were some of the things that you learned or challenges you experienced?

Colleen: Marketing is a hard one. I would say most of my business comes from word of mouth and that's how really I started out by just talking to women. Having focus groups and really I'm always interested in what they like to wear and what works and what doesn't work and can we make that work in a garment? My marketing has really just been very organic and as I've grown, obviously I've gotten onto social media kicking and screaming all the way.

Karen: I can relate to that sometimes.

Colleen: It's even more so now. I find it's always a push-pull kind of thing with me trying to be on there, trying to create awareness, but trying not to be like sales-y. I find that it's a hard line to walk.

Karen: It is, and I think I had a look through and when I was getting ready for this, and I think you do a great job with that. What helps is as well is that, I mentioned a couple of times you've got quite a loyal fan base and they've been very willing to speak up about how much they love your products and that experience of wearing them. I follow one photographer who I've known for about 10 years now. I know you and she have a very close relationship and I remember seeing her trying on one of the dresses and posting a bunch of pictures of herself with the dresses and just wrote quite a lengthy post about how much she loves it. That kind of word of mouth marketing is so valuable.

Colleen: I'm just so grateful for that and it's also like I love their work too. It's a natural thing. I think it's just so amazing, right? Women supporting women in business. Yes, I'm so thankful for that.

Karen: Yes, absolutely. It's definitely challenging to make sure that the focus isn't on sales, but I think that you've managed to [hit] the right note and people are really responding well to it because they see the value in what you're doing.

Colleen: Thank you for that. I've learned to ask for help, too. That was a hard thing for me as well for people to help me with that and to ask for reviews or testimonials, but they're always so happy to do it.

Karen: I think that speaks to the relationship we have with our clothes, too. When we find something we really love. I know, with shoes and whether it's pants or a dress, there are certain things that when I find it, I'll buy it over and over again, or I'll buy several just so that I can make them last longer and I am not ashamed to wear a similar outfit every day for a week.

Colleen: The thing is you can make the same thing, look different every day with just a few accessories and people have no idea that you had the same thing on the day before.

Karen: Exactly and it makes it so much easier and eases the load in your closet, too. I've gotten to a point where I need to do a big purge of my closet because it's like too much, but I would love to get out of that cycle and I know a lot of women would. Because we're all trying to be more mindful of what we're buying, looking at the ethics of how they produce, what they sell and you've got a great story for that.

Colleen: Yes and I think that's one change I'm hoping that will come out of this pandemic, is that people be more mindful of how they consume things.

Karen: Absolutely.

Colleen: I hope, too. Just the fashion industry in general, I think it's taking note on that as well and there's so much inventory out there and retail space, like the big shopping malls and I think we couldn't sustain that and the pandemic just pushed that forward on the agenda. I hope the whole industry and just consumers in general think more about how they're buying things.

Karen: That's a great point. It makes a big difference. You've seen the discussions about office buildings. That's been such a prominent discussion and people working remotely but shopping malls are also problematic in their own way. Just the size of the buildings, the amount of product that's in them, the amount of product that either ends up in a landfill because it's unpurchased or it's sitting in a warehouse somewhere hoping to be purchased. There's so much out there and it's not doing anyone any benefit as it is.

Colleen: It's that excess. That excess mentality and I know I heard that in North America, we have the most retail space per capita and which is just too much and then also with the excess inventory has prompted that whole, everything is always on sale. You go into the mall and no one ever expects to pay full price anymore because there's always a sale on these. It used to be just Boxing Day sales and things like that but now it's all the time, and we can't be fooled that it's a sale price, but that's really their regular price because it's always that price. I try and fight that as well in that I don't typically put my clothes on sale. It's just like this is the price. It's worth this price because of the quality and then it's all Canadian made and that's what it is.

Karen: I actually went into a retailer, this was probably 17 years ago here in Canada. I went into a retailer that I visited semi-regularly. It wasn't a place I loved to shop at, but they had this blazer and I was very interested in it as soon as it came out, but it was at a price point at the time I wasn't particularly willing to pay. I thought I'd wait and see what would happen because I made note of the price and I would say maybe two or three months later, I walked back in the store, they were having a sale, and I looked at the tag and they had changed the tag to a marked up price from what I had originally seen and put the sale price down to the original price. That was an 'aha' moment for me because I had never actually personally witnessed that happening. It made me very aware of how we are sort of gas-lit into thinking we're getting a deal in certain situations.

Colleen: Yes, for sure.

Karen: It's definitely a mental shift that we need to make to look at the value and not the price and shift how we value things as well.

Colleen: Yes definitely.

Karen: Don't keep it for a season or a couple of seasons, keep it more for longevity and quality and value the fact that we have clothing on our backs and not so much the prestige of whatever you're looking for, because I think everybody has a slightly different motivation.

Colleen: There's certainly, you want to trend—not trendy—but in style for sure, but if you look at your basic things like a t-shirt, there's not really a lot you can do with a t-shirt. In the long run, if you're going to pay 20 bucks for three t-shirts that last one season, where you can pay, $75 for a really well-made t-shirt that's going to last you years. It just makes sense.

Karen: Absolutely. I always think about my dad, when I was growing up, he'd buy $300 pairs of shoes, and as a child, I was like, "Dad, that's such a waste of money. How are you spending that much money?" He'd say, this is going to last me 10 years. He would wear them for that long, if not longer.

Colleen: That's great.

Karen: It was a really good lesson that you can actually have quality. I wish I had internalized it a little sooner I might have saved a lot more money by this point.

Colleen: It's a learning process.

Karen: We're going against the stream; we've got a fight against all the messages that are being sent to us every day in the media.

Colleen: Yes. Especially in women's clothing, right? With body image, the whole thing bombarded with that all the time.

Karen: Yes, absolutely. Colleen, how can our listeners reach you? How can they find you online?

Colleen: Okay, so I have a website, an online store, which is at COKANNA.ca. I'm also on Facebook. I have a business page. It's just COKANNA again. I also have my COKANNA virtual coffee shop group, which anyone can request to join. And I'm on Instagram, @COKANNAdesigns there. I'm on Pinterest as well, which is also COKANNA.

Karen: That's great. Well, I will make sure that all the links to those social sites and your website are in the show notes. Did you want to make an offer to listeners today?

Colleen: I would, I really would. Since we're moving into the fall now, that's cooler weather, I would like to feature my Lynne pant. Oh my God, I just love these pants. The one thing in my closet that I wear almost every day, now that the weather's a bit cooler. They're bamboo and they're like a legging, but not really a leggings so they fit like a legging but they almost look like a dress your pant that you can definitely wear them to work. They have a nice comfy wide waist band that it's not uncomfortable, but keeps everything nice, smooth, sleek, and have a rib detail down the side.

They're great because they're like a boot cut so you can wear them with little ankle boots or shoes, and they're fine, or you can tuck them into high boots as well. That works as well. They're just a great pant that you can wear for almost anything. I'd like to offer your listener a 10% off on those if they go online to my store, and just all you have to do put the coupon code SMALLBUTMIGHTY when you checkout.

Karen: Perfect, that's fantastic. We'll make sure to include a link to the pants and the coupon code in the show notes as well so that people can access it easily. Thank you for making that offer today and for coming on. It has been so fun to get to know your story and hear all about what inspired you to start the business.

Colleen: Well, thank you so much, Karen. I'm honored to be on your podcast and share a little bit about myself and my business and my story.

Karen: Well, it's an absolute pleasure having you on. Thank you for taking the time to join me today.

Colleen: Thank you.